Insightful, thank you - I used to hate the question "what do you do?" because it triggered the 'the great void' of knowing I wanted to do something else but didn't know what - (whereas everyone else seemed to be so damn sure). For 20 years I hated getting out of bed in the morning to 'go to (meaningless) work' - and that as an engineer and then academic (yes, I was one of them; the introduction of tuition fees killed it for me). I quit in 2000, went on a woodworking course (feeling guilty at allowing myself to do something creative) and never looked back. My ice-breaker is usually "... and what are your interests in life?" (quite similar to your question, I think).
It’s so interesting to hear your perspective, as engineer and academic are usually considered to be “status” jobs - but I think what your answer has shown me is that, if you feel you’re not on the right path in life, then you still might not want to talk about your job (no matter what the perceived status of it is).
I’m glad that you found your way into woodworking and a path that was right for you, it sounds like it took courage.
It’s also interesting that you ask people a similar question to me - I guess people who have hated their day jobs soon learn not to ask others about theirs!
Thank you for the reply. From my rather Victorian middle-class upbringing in the 1950/60s, Doctor/Lawyer/Vicar were o.k - engineer was considered a bit 'really?' -- and academics were considered a bit mentally unstable because they were too clever for their own good. Adventurer was held in high esteem but only if you were the first to do something great (first to sail non-stop round the world the wrong way, for example).
I started at 17 down the coal mines in North Manchester because, after nine years in boarding school, I wanted to know how 'everyone else' lived. I loved the community and the spirit-in-adversity comaraderie. Thatcher smashed up coal-mining in 1984/5 and it was time to change. Academia came by default through luck. It is held in far too high esteem. After I edited my first academic text I thought 'shit, I'll never believe anything I read ever again'. And I haven't.
Essentially I'm a poet, weaver and sculptor but money in the family has enabled me to take risks & opportunities that otherwise would not have been possible. Now though, if I could live each day at peace with myself, that would indeed be a high achievement. I feel most blessed when I am in the creative process - this is where 'doing' meets 'being' in some kind of ritual of oneness-with-the-spirit-of-life.
I can see from your journey that it is the brave one of taking ongoing steps towards authenticity, and I applaud that. I don't know who I am to say such a thing, but please 'keep going'. And if you feel you're always only ever getting to the starting-grid of life, take it as a good sign. Beginners Mind opens more interesting doors than those who believe they know what's what. You have a great writing style, by the way.
That does sound like a very Victorian upbringing - “you can be a vicar or a lawyer or a gentleman explorer and naturalist, but nothing else!”
I’m really interesting in your winding path to becoming an artist and I hope that you will share your story on Substack. I also appreciate your encouragement about my own winding path.
I saw that you gifted me a coffee - well, quite a few coffees in fact! I sent you a thank you on Kofi but I’d like to add my heartfelt thanks here too. Substack is such a wonderful place full of interesting people.
My father was born in 1910 and aged 4, remembered the outbreak of WW1. The family was travelling on a train to Chorlton-cum-Hardy in Manchester when they stopped at a station and the newspaper boys were on the platform were waving newspapers with headlines War had been declared. It was his earliest memory of the echo going down the carriages "war-has-been-declared war-has-been-declared war-has-been-declared ..." I think stories like these remind one how one's parents were born into a very different world, coped with massive changes, and after the war just wanted a quiet life with 'old-fashioned' values.
I can understand wanting a quiet life with old-fashioned values!
Also, thank you for sharing your interview, it chines with many of my own concerns. I think our passivity over the devouring force of AI is a form of insanity, it’s as if we’re in a collective trance. Your view of it being a form of idolatry explains a lot. I hope you’ll keep exploring these ideas on Substack. I have shared the article.
"Collective trance" is spot on in my opinion - cultivated long term by the stories we have, and are still being, told, especially via religion (sinners who need redemption, a role AI is now claiming), and history (told as a story of one great avenue of progress through technology). Politicians are merely the unwitting gofers. Unfortunately as long as The System can fool a sufficient number of the population a suffient amount of the time, it will continue. Whether there will be a great awakening with a big collective "No!", I have no idea.
Yes! I ask people what they love to do, and it always sparks conversation. For those of us without the day-jobs we want, the answer to the dreaded question "What do you do?" can be -- "That won't be interesting to you or to me, but I'll tell you what I love to do..." And then go for it! My husband reminded me once that even lawyers and doctors hate that question -- because in the end, reading briefs and looking down people's throats is not very interesting. Everyone has something that sparks their interest. Everyone is a novel.
“Everyone is a novel”. I agree! There isn’t a single boring person in the world. You just have to turn the key to unlock a conversation about something they’re passionate about.
Now, this's a question I would be comfortable answering. U used to be a teacher? Actually I am in the teaching line but not in a school. Don't think it's ideal to stay in teaching but it sort of pays the bills currently. I think your writing's quite interesting and you have a nice cup of tea when it's morning later! XOXO
Hi Deborah, this was such a wonderful piece. I was at the University of Gloucestershire in Cheltenham and have now resettled in my home country- India. But I remembered someone from the university who used to do the admin job. I was a student and I always went to talk to my professors - something that I picked up from my Indian university where I’d spend a lot of time with the professors and people from the admin. I’d see Sarah almost every other day but she’d be glued to the screen. One day I made it up to her and asked her how her day was so far and I could see that she was restless and anxious in answering so instead I asked her about her family and her childhood and she was delighted. I was the only student who would talk to her about things other than uni. She even invited me to her house and I got to meet her husband and three kids and have a rather long friendship that still lasts.
Thanks for bringing back those memories back Deborah..
Hello Ashutosh, this is a lovely story! Thank you for sharing. It’s so important to try to really “see” people who are doing anonymous roles.
You brought up some good memories for me too. In one of my university admin roles, I mainly worked with students from India who had come to Scotland to do their MBA.
They were such lovely, kind people. Some of them were like you - they would come into my office, ask me about my day and want to get to know me. One group of students invited me to their halls of residence for a delicious meal.
So that job wasn’t all bad - the students from India made it worth it.
I am sure that Sarah really valued her friendship with you🙂
What a fantastic piece on the don’t do it social icebreaker
What do you do? Is similar yet to other titanic sinking moments?
Ie: do you have kids?
Are you married?
I love this “ What do you like to do?”
I have been running experiments with variations of that question and it definitely opens up to a world of passion and wonder as you said close to a person’s chest.
Thank you so much for your kind comments, Prajna! Yes, I agree, I also don’t ask people about marriage and kids. Asking about a person’s interests and passions is a much safer topic that can also lead to amazing conversations.
It's impressive enough for me too, believe me! I travel around as a pet-sitter and I love the pets I look after, but sometimes I think — "Phew, I don't know how I'd manage if I was caring for a toddler instead, that must be 100 times the work!" You're raising a whole other person and that's huge.
Let's both try and retire that awful "what do you do?" question and ask people about their interests instead.
Of course they do - they’re oblivious to the myriad administrators, advisors and support staff working hard in the background! Working in university support can be an invisible role, but I know how crucial it is. I think I made a difference to some students and that’s not a brag - it’s just part of the role.
And why would your work not be interesting, just because you’re not standing behind a lectern?
Insightful, thank you - I used to hate the question "what do you do?" because it triggered the 'the great void' of knowing I wanted to do something else but didn't know what - (whereas everyone else seemed to be so damn sure). For 20 years I hated getting out of bed in the morning to 'go to (meaningless) work' - and that as an engineer and then academic (yes, I was one of them; the introduction of tuition fees killed it for me). I quit in 2000, went on a woodworking course (feeling guilty at allowing myself to do something creative) and never looked back. My ice-breaker is usually "... and what are your interests in life?" (quite similar to your question, I think).
It’s so interesting to hear your perspective, as engineer and academic are usually considered to be “status” jobs - but I think what your answer has shown me is that, if you feel you’re not on the right path in life, then you still might not want to talk about your job (no matter what the perceived status of it is).
I’m glad that you found your way into woodworking and a path that was right for you, it sounds like it took courage.
It’s also interesting that you ask people a similar question to me - I guess people who have hated their day jobs soon learn not to ask others about theirs!
Thank you for the reply. From my rather Victorian middle-class upbringing in the 1950/60s, Doctor/Lawyer/Vicar were o.k - engineer was considered a bit 'really?' -- and academics were considered a bit mentally unstable because they were too clever for their own good. Adventurer was held in high esteem but only if you were the first to do something great (first to sail non-stop round the world the wrong way, for example).
I started at 17 down the coal mines in North Manchester because, after nine years in boarding school, I wanted to know how 'everyone else' lived. I loved the community and the spirit-in-adversity comaraderie. Thatcher smashed up coal-mining in 1984/5 and it was time to change. Academia came by default through luck. It is held in far too high esteem. After I edited my first academic text I thought 'shit, I'll never believe anything I read ever again'. And I haven't.
Essentially I'm a poet, weaver and sculptor but money in the family has enabled me to take risks & opportunities that otherwise would not have been possible. Now though, if I could live each day at peace with myself, that would indeed be a high achievement. I feel most blessed when I am in the creative process - this is where 'doing' meets 'being' in some kind of ritual of oneness-with-the-spirit-of-life.
I can see from your journey that it is the brave one of taking ongoing steps towards authenticity, and I applaud that. I don't know who I am to say such a thing, but please 'keep going'. And if you feel you're always only ever getting to the starting-grid of life, take it as a good sign. Beginners Mind opens more interesting doors than those who believe they know what's what. You have a great writing style, by the way.
(My apologies for going on a bit).
That does sound like a very Victorian upbringing - “you can be a vicar or a lawyer or a gentleman explorer and naturalist, but nothing else!”
I’m really interesting in your winding path to becoming an artist and I hope that you will share your story on Substack. I also appreciate your encouragement about my own winding path.
I saw that you gifted me a coffee - well, quite a few coffees in fact! I sent you a thank you on Kofi but I’d like to add my heartfelt thanks here too. Substack is such a wonderful place full of interesting people.
My father was born in 1910 and aged 4, remembered the outbreak of WW1. The family was travelling on a train to Chorlton-cum-Hardy in Manchester when they stopped at a station and the newspaper boys were on the platform were waving newspapers with headlines War had been declared. It was his earliest memory of the echo going down the carriages "war-has-been-declared war-has-been-declared war-has-been-declared ..." I think stories like these remind one how one's parents were born into a very different world, coped with massive changes, and after the war just wanted a quiet life with 'old-fashioned' values.
Regarding my winding path, you can actually read a version of it as an interview with Unbekoming here on substack: https://unbekoming.substack.com/p/the-journey
As for the coffees, my pleasure - and it was the first time I did this; glad it all worked. I got your other note too, thank you.
I can understand wanting a quiet life with old-fashioned values!
Also, thank you for sharing your interview, it chines with many of my own concerns. I think our passivity over the devouring force of AI is a form of insanity, it’s as if we’re in a collective trance. Your view of it being a form of idolatry explains a lot. I hope you’ll keep exploring these ideas on Substack. I have shared the article.
Thank you for sharing the interview/article.
"Collective trance" is spot on in my opinion - cultivated long term by the stories we have, and are still being, told, especially via religion (sinners who need redemption, a role AI is now claiming), and history (told as a story of one great avenue of progress through technology). Politicians are merely the unwitting gofers. Unfortunately as long as The System can fool a sufficient number of the population a suffient amount of the time, it will continue. Whether there will be a great awakening with a big collective "No!", I have no idea.
Yes! I ask people what they love to do, and it always sparks conversation. For those of us without the day-jobs we want, the answer to the dreaded question "What do you do?" can be -- "That won't be interesting to you or to me, but I'll tell you what I love to do..." And then go for it! My husband reminded me once that even lawyers and doctors hate that question -- because in the end, reading briefs and looking down people's throats is not very interesting. Everyone has something that sparks their interest. Everyone is a novel.
“Everyone is a novel”. I agree! There isn’t a single boring person in the world. You just have to turn the key to unlock a conversation about something they’re passionate about.
I read Substack, thanks for asking.
I hope someone will ask me in real life, so I can tell them I'm a swashbuckler (retired).
I would love someone to give me that answer.
Love this. I have always found it a bit ‘social climber’, like people are filtering out those they don’t feel are worthy.
Yours is way better 👌🏼🔥
I completely agree, so much of that question is about status but we're supposed to pretend it isn't.
Also, thank you for the restack — you seem to be one of the most generous people on here when it comes to highlighting people's writing.
Only when it’s decent and deserves to be seen 😉👌🏼
Now, this's a question I would be comfortable answering. U used to be a teacher? Actually I am in the teaching line but not in a school. Don't think it's ideal to stay in teaching but it sort of pays the bills currently. I think your writing's quite interesting and you have a nice cup of tea when it's morning later! XOXO
Thanks so much Kasandra, I’m glad you liked the post. 🙂
Definitely on board with this. When I used to drive a van for a living (which I mostly loved) I used to dread this question.
I wonder if this is partially a UK problem. We attach too much social status to our job titles.
Agreed, I think that UK class snobbery plays a big part in this. It’s horrible that anyone should have to dread being asked about their job.
Hi Deborah, this was such a wonderful piece. I was at the University of Gloucestershire in Cheltenham and have now resettled in my home country- India. But I remembered someone from the university who used to do the admin job. I was a student and I always went to talk to my professors - something that I picked up from my Indian university where I’d spend a lot of time with the professors and people from the admin. I’d see Sarah almost every other day but she’d be glued to the screen. One day I made it up to her and asked her how her day was so far and I could see that she was restless and anxious in answering so instead I asked her about her family and her childhood and she was delighted. I was the only student who would talk to her about things other than uni. She even invited me to her house and I got to meet her husband and three kids and have a rather long friendship that still lasts.
Thanks for bringing back those memories back Deborah..
Hello Ashutosh, this is a lovely story! Thank you for sharing. It’s so important to try to really “see” people who are doing anonymous roles.
You brought up some good memories for me too. In one of my university admin roles, I mainly worked with students from India who had come to Scotland to do their MBA.
They were such lovely, kind people. Some of them were like you - they would come into my office, ask me about my day and want to get to know me. One group of students invited me to their halls of residence for a delicious meal.
So that job wasn’t all bad - the students from India made it worth it.
I am sure that Sarah really valued her friendship with you🙂
Hello Deborah
What a fantastic piece on the don’t do it social icebreaker
What do you do? Is similar yet to other titanic sinking moments?
Ie: do you have kids?
Are you married?
I love this “ What do you like to do?”
I have been running experiments with variations of that question and it definitely opens up to a world of passion and wonder as you said close to a person’s chest.
Excellent Reed I hope more people find you
Thank you
Thank you so much for your kind comments, Prajna! Yes, I agree, I also don’t ask people about marriage and kids. Asking about a person’s interests and passions is a much safer topic that can also lead to amazing conversations.
I agree so much💗
Thank you, I'm glad that you relate!
It's impressive enough for me too, believe me! I travel around as a pet-sitter and I love the pets I look after, but sometimes I think — "Phew, I don't know how I'd manage if I was caring for a toddler instead, that must be 100 times the work!" You're raising a whole other person and that's huge.
Let's both try and retire that awful "what do you do?" question and ask people about their interests instead.
Megan, congratulations on doing the hardest job in the world! I have to share this post with you at your stage in life -- I hope it makes you laugh! https://katesusong.substack.com/p/perfect?r=2iyrll
That's awful! But if they act disappointed like that, it also reveals a lot about them and why they asked the question.
Of course they do - they’re oblivious to the myriad administrators, advisors and support staff working hard in the background! Working in university support can be an invisible role, but I know how crucial it is. I think I made a difference to some students and that’s not a brag - it’s just part of the role.
And why would your work not be interesting, just because you’re not standing behind a lectern?